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From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: BATF/FBI Murders Almost Everyone in Waco Today! 4/19
Date: 21 Apr 1993 13:22:15 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Lines: 147
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <1r3hq7INN2n8@clem.handheld.com>
References: <C5tnGt.224@news.udel.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com

In article <C5tnGt.224@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)  
writes:
> In article <1r21vqINNeb8@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De  
Arras) writes:
> >In article <C5spov.LrE@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)  
> >writes:
> >> In article <1r0qsrINNc61@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De  
> >Arras) writes:
> >> >In article <C5s0Ds.J54@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)  
> >> >writes:
> >> >> I agree that they deserved a trial.  They had more than 40 days to come 
> >> >> out and get their trial.  They chose to keep the children with them and 
> >> >> to stay inside.  They chose to stay inside even after they were tear  
> >gassed.
> >> >> I do not find these actions rational.  Even Noriega was smart enough to 
> >> >> give up and go for the trial he deserved.
> >> >> 
> >> >
> >> >Mr. Roby, you are a government sucking heartless bastard.  
> >> 
> >> Unworthy of comment.
> >
> >But apparently true.  My opinion, only, of course.
> 
> So, your opinion is truth.  I see...  :-)
> 

Still mastering the language, eh?  Notice the use of "apparently".

> >> >Humans died  
> >> >yesterday, humans who would not have died if the FBI had not taken the 
> >> >actions  
> >> >they did.  That is the undeniable truth.  I cried for them.  
> >> 
> >> Nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty.
> >> That is undeniable truth.  
> >
> >No, it is not.  It is possible the FBI planned for this to happen, and the  
> >gunfire heard was the FBI keeping the folks inside.  I'm not proposing this  
as  
> >the way it went down, but just to point out that it's not "undeniable" that  
if  
> >they walked out yesterday, they would be alive today.
> 
> You can believe that if you wish.  It is undeniable, however, that people 
> have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff.
> 
> And since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse, you 
> can not say undeniably that there wouldn't have been a mass suicide if the 
> FBI had simply stayed outside and waited another 51 days.
> 

I'm not denying that at all.  But every day is another chance for a good  
ending, why push it?  Mr. Roby, you are going to die, anyway, why not today?   
Every moment of life is precious.

> >> My heart bleeds just as much as yours for 
> >> the children who were never released given 51 days of ample opportunities 
> >> to do so.  My heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious  
devotion 
> >> to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up 
> >> and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning.
> >
> >My heart "bleeds" for no one.  You are the "bleeding heart".  And I'm sure  
> >beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as I do.   
You  
> >can not say the heartless things you have said if you did.
> 
> I am the heartless bleeding heart?  You are not making sense.

No, you are the heartless "bleeding heart".  A flaming liberal who "cares  
deeply", who "feels your pain".

> You seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this 
> compound when they had 51 days to let them out.  That sounds pretty heartless 
> to me.
> 

You have continually raised this issue, without any understanding of the bonds  
between parent and child.  It is not easy to say a final goodbye to your  
children, I do not think I could do it, either.  If that makes me heartless, so  
be it.  How many children do you have?  I have three.


> I just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn't 
> stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to Koresh.  This makes me 
> sad and sick.
> 

It just makes me sad.  I never claimed Koresh was an angel.

> >> >You seem to say  
> >> >they got what they deserved.
> >> 
> >> I do not think this.  However, if they did set the fire (which started in 
> >> more than one place and spread very quickly), then they got what they 
> >> wanted and put into motion themselves.
> >
> >"they got what they wanted".  What kind of creature are you that you can  
> >believe this?
> 
> Have you ever heard of Jonestown?
> The sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority 
> worshipers and their only authority was Koresh/Howell.   If these 
> people were able to think for themselves, there would likely be a lot 
> more survivors today.  Koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as 
> last year.
> 

I made the same authority worshiper point about you a few lines back.  And once  
again, Jonestown, however sick it was, was doing OK, until "the Authorities"  
showed up and pushed a fragile person over the edge.  

A bull in a china shop.

> >> I see the BATF is going to be investigated by the Justice Dept. and likely 
> >> by Arlen Spectre and congress.  This is good.  They have bungled the  
affair 
> >> from the start.
> >
> >We agree on this.  Now lets have your God, the FBI, investigated, too.
> 
> By all means, the FBI should be investigated, too.  
> BTW, I thought the second ammendment was God.  :-)
> 

Nope, the constitution in total is, for me.  If you think the RKBA is all I'm  
about, you misjudge me.

> >> >Jim
> >> >--
> >> >jmd@handheld.com
> >>  
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
Jim

--
jmd@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that.  There's never been a day when I haven't rethought  
that.  But I can't do that by myself."  Bill Clinton  6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed  
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
