Xref: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu alt.rush-limbaugh:23972 talk.politics.guns:54943
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From: stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Andy:  how do we stop people with a gun?
Summary: Guns can kill: that's why I have them.
Keywords: guns handguns rifles shotguns
Message-ID: <1313@bug.UUCP>
Date: 16 Apr 93 02:54:31 GMT
References: <1993Apr7.141930.29582@freenet.carleton.ca>
Reply-To: stevef@bug.UUCP (Steven R Fordyce)
Distribution: na
Organization: Handmade Designs, Salem, OR, USA
Lines: 169

In article <1993Apr7.141930.29582@freenet.carleton.ca>
ac002@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nikolaus Maack) writes:
>Come on.   A gun kills people.  

Rather, people kill people with guns.  The sad truth is: sometimes that is
good, or at least, better than the alternative.

>But let's ignore guns for defence and/or crime and look at gun accidents.

Ok.  There are about 1400 fatal firearm accidents per year [1], and the
number has been in decline since early this century [2].  Most of these
accidents involve rifles or shot guns, not handguns.

...
>But seriously: a gun is designed to fire a bullet.   This is not so you
>can shoot cardboard cut outs down at the range.

In fact there are both guns and bullets designed specifically for that. 
The idea that my Ruger Mark II Bull Barrel (a semi-auto 0.22 caliber
handgun) was designed to kill or hurt people, even for self defense,
would, I'm sure, come as a surprise to its designer.  It certainly isn't
why I have it.  It certainly would hurt someone if you shot them with it,
and might even kill them, but it is simply wrong to say it was designed to
kill people.

>This is not designed to act as a tool for home  defence where you show
>someone  that you have a gun and they go "Gee, perhaps I should leave".

In fact, that is what happens most of the time.  Most self defensive uses
of firearms don't involve firing any shots.  Most criminals would prefer
not to be shot, and will go to some effort not to be, including doing what
you say when you point a gun at them.

If you were called on to design a tool, that could be easily carried, to
immediately stop someone attacking you, what would it be?  A handgun is
about the best anyone has come up with and experience shows it does work
the best.[3]

>No, you see the gun was designed to fire that little bullet into a human
>body and hurt them.  Not a tough concept to swallow, for most.

Certainly, no one argues that handguns (of the type we are discussing)
aren't deadly weapons.  However, it simply isn't true to say that all of
them were designed to kill people.  Moreover, what exactly is wrong with
having deadly weapons?  There are times when it is perfectly legitimate to
use deadly force, e.g. in self defense.  I consider it not just my right,
but my duty to defend myself and my family, and that includes having and
knowing how to use the tools to do that.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear
arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in
government."
	- T. Jefferson.

I think what Jefferson said is still true.

>And the trouble with having such an item is often the little bullet goes
>off into the wrong fleshy target.

Not very often compared to other use.[3]

>Or else Uncle Frank gets pissed and blows  away his wife.

This isn't that common either, at least when compared to other uses.  It is
very rare that a non-violent person will suddenly "get-pissed" and kill
someone, gun or not.  In most cases, the people who murder have long
histories of violence.  If you have good reason to believe that these
people wouldn't kill if they didn't have a gun, feel free to present it.

>Having a thing  specificly designed to kill means it is much easier to
>kill things.  Right?

Right, but there are times when killing things is called for.  I hope I
never have to shoot a person, but I've had to kill a number of animals from
rodents to cows, and when I do, I don't want them to suffer any more than
is necessary.  I prefer they die instantly, but failing that, I want them
to drop so I can quickly finish them with the next shot, and failing that,
I don't want them to go fast or far.  I try to choose the best weapon and
ammunition I have to try to achieve that goal for the size of animal I'm
after, but it doesn't always work as I plan.  Without belaboring the point,
people who are overly impressed with the killing or shopping power of guns,
particularly handguns, haven't used them much for that purpose.


[1] Accidental deaths in 1988:
	48700 deaths by auto
	11300 deaths by fall
	 5300 deaths by drowning
	 4800 deaths by fire
	 4400 deaths by poison
	 3200 deaths by food
	 1400 deaths by firearm

     Source: Statistics Department, National Safety Council.
     "Accidents Facts 1988 Edition". National Safety Council.
    444 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago IL  606111  (800) 621-7619


[2] RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:28:19)

DESCRIPTION
===========
The accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily 
for almost sixty years. In 1932, the accidental deaths by firearm per 
1,000,000 people was 24.03. In 1987, it was 5.74. The decline has been 
steady, consistent, and a fairly straight line when plotted. At the rate 
of the last sixty years, it will reach zero sometime around 2025 AD.

CONCLUSION
==========
Firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over 
sixty years, despite rising per-capita gun ownership.



[1] = Year.
[2] = Population.
[3] = Accidental deaths.
[4] = Accidental deaths per 1,000,000.


[1]   [2]          [3]    [4]       [1]   [2]          [3]    [4]   
1932  124,840,000  3,000  24.03     1961  183,691,000  2,204  12.00
1933  125,579,000  3,014  24.00     1962  186,538,000  2,092  11.21     
1934  126,374,000  3,033  24.00     1963  189,242,000  2,263  11.96     
1935  127,250,000  2,799  22.00     1964  191,889,000  2,275  11.86     
1936  128,053,000  2,817  22.00     1965  194,303,000  2,344  12.06     
1937  128,825,000  2,576  20.00     1966  196,560,000  2,558  13.01     
1938  129,825,000  2,726  21.00     1967  198,712,000  2,896  14.57     
1939  130,880,000  2,618  20.00     1968  200,706,000  2,394  11.93     
1940  132,122,000  2,375  17.98     1969  202,677,000  2,309  11.39     
1941  133,402,000  2,396  17.96     1970  204,879,000  2,406  11.74     
1942  134,860,000  2,678  19.86     1971  207,661,000  2,360  11.36     
1943  136,739,000  2,282  16.69     1972  209,896,000  2,442  11.63    
1944  138,397,000  2,392  17.28     1973  211,909,000  2,618  12.35    
1945  139,928,000  2,385  17.04     1974  213,854,000  2,613  12.22    
1946  141,389,000  2,801  19.81     1975  215,854,000  2,380  11.03    
1947  144,126,000  2,439  16.92     1976  218,035,000  2,059   9.44    
1948  146,631,000  2,191  14.94     1977  220,239,000  1,982   9.00    
1949  149,188,000  2,330  15.62     1978  222,585,000  1,806   8.11    
1950  151,684,000  2,174  14.33     1979  225,055,000  2,004   8.90
1951  154,287,000  2,247  14.56     1980  227,757,000  1,955   8.58    
1952  156,954,000  2,210  14.08     1981  230,138,000  1,871   8.13
1953  159,565,000  2,277  14.27     1982  232,520,000  1,756   7.55    
1954  162,391,000  2,271  13.98     1983  234,799,000  1,695   7.22    
1955  165,275,000  2,120  12.83     1984  237,001,000  1,668   7.04    
1956  168,221,000  2,202  13.09     1985  239,279,000  1,649   6.89    
1957  171,274,000  2,369  13.83     1986  241,613,000  1,600   6.62    
1958  174,141,000  2,172  12.47     1987  243,915,000  1,400   5.74    
1959  177,073,000  2,258  12.75           
1960  180,671,000  2,334  12.92

Sources: 
U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, 
Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975.

U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 
1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic]..

U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 
1989 (109th edition.)  Washington, DC, 1989.


[3] Kleck, Gary.  "Guns and Self-Defense: Crime Control through the Use of
Force in the Private Sector."  __Social Problems__ 35(1988):4, pp. 7-9.
-- 
orstcs!opac!bug!stevef          I am the NRA              Steven R. Fordyce
uunet!sequent!ether!stevef         . . .       The only fair tax is no tax!
