Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
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From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: was:Go Hezbollah!
Message-ID: <1993Apr16.130037.18830@ncsu.edu>
Sender: news@ncsu.edu (USENET News System)
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: NCSU Chem Eng
References: <1993Apr15.152455.14555@unocal.com> <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:00:37 GMT
Lines: 128


In article <2BCE0918.6105@news.service.uci.edu>, tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes:
|
|> In article <Apr15.175334.72079@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@lance.colostate.edu writes:
|> >
|> >It is NOT a "terrorist camp" as you and the Israelis like 
|> >to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer
|> >in the streets, women preparing lunch, men playing cards, etc.....
|> >SOME young men, usually aged between 17 to 30 years are members of
|> >the Lebanese resistance.  Even the inhabitants of the village do not 
|> >know who these are, they are secretive about it, but most people often
|> >suspect who they are and what they are up to.  These young men are
|> >supported financially by Iran most of the time.  They sneak arms and
|> >ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps
|> >for Israeli patrols.  Every time an Israeli soldier is killed or injured
|> >by these traps, Israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages
|> >of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians.  
|> 
|> This a "tried and true" method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups:
|> to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace, thus forcing the
|> opposing "state" to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or,
|> in order to avoid the deaths of civilians, abandon the search. Certainly the
|> people who use the population for cover are *also* to blaim for dragging the
|> innocent civilians into harm's way.
|> 
|> Are you suggesting that, when guerillas use the population for cover, Israel
|> should totally back down? So...the easiest way to get away with attacking
|> another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects
|> innocent lives?

Tell me Tim, what are these guerillas doing wrong? Assuming that they are using
civilians for cover, are they not killing SOLDIERS in THEIR country? If the
buffer zone is to prevent attacks on Israel, is it not working? Why is it 
further neccessary for Israeli guns to pound Lebanese villages? Why not just
kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone? You see, there is more to
the shelling of the villages.... it is called RETALIATION... "GETTING BACK"
..."GETTING EVEN". It doesn't make sense to shell the villages. The least
it shows is a reckless disregard by the Israeli government for the lives of
civilians.


|> >If Israel insists that
|> >the so called "Security Zone" is necessary for the protection of 
|> >Northern Israel, than it will have to pay the price of its occupation
|> >with the blood of its soldiers.  

|> >If Israel is interested in peace, than it should withdraw from OUR land.  
|> 
|> What? So the whole bit about attacks on Israel from neighboring Arab states 
|> can start all over again? While I also hope for this to happen, it will
|> only occur WHEN Arab states show that they are *prepared* to take on the 
|> responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on Israel from their 
|> soil. They have to Prove it (or provide some "guaratees"), there is no way
|> Israel is going to accept their "word"- not with their past attitude of 
|> tolerance towards "anti-Israel guerillas in-residence".

If Israel is not willing to accept the "word" of others then, IMHO, it has
no business wasting others' time coming to the peace talks. 

|> >
|> >I have written before on this very newsgroup, that the only
|> >real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace
|> >settlement whereby Israel withdraws to its own borders and
|> >peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure
|> >no one on either side of the border is shelled.
|> 
|> Good lord, Brad. [....]

No, I am not Basil. I think Basil is a very intelligent person and I
respect what he writes. Basil is a person that I would gladly call
a friend. He is, however, not me. Nor am I Lebanese, as some seem to
suspect.
 
|> >This is the only realistic solution, it is time for Israel to
|> >realize that the concept of a "buffer zone" aimed at protecting
|> >its northern cities has failed.  In fact it has caused much more
|> >Israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of Northern Israel
|> >would have resulted in.  
|> 
|> Perhaps you are aware that, to most communities of people, there is
|> the feeling that it is better that "many of us die fighting
|> against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently 
|> accept our fate." If,however, you call on Israel to see the sense of 
|> suffering fewer casualties, I suggest you apply the same to Palestinian,
|> Arab and Islamic groups.

Tim, you are ignoring the fact that the Palestinians in Lebanon have been
disarmed. Hezbollah remains the only independent militia. Hezbollah does
not attack Israel except at a few times such as when the IDF burned up
Sheikh Mosavi, his wife, and young son. Of course, if Israel would withdraw
from Lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn't
make the Lebanese so mad as to do that. Furthermore, with Hezbollah 
subsequently disarmed, it would not be possible.

|> >and now the Lebanese government has proven that it is
|> >capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did
|> >in all other parts of Lebanon.
|> >
|> >Basil
|> 
|> It has not. Without the support, and active involvement, of Syria,
|> Lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred.
|> Once Syria leaves who is to say that Lebanon will be able to retain 
|> control? If Syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for Israel.

Tim, when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the Syrian border?
Not lately, eh?

Israel knows very well that the Syrians are able to restrain ALL who would use
territory under their control to attack Israel. While Lebanon would be better
off with Syria and Israel out of its borders, the presence of Syrian troops
in Lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on Israeli territory (not on
Israeli troops in Lebanon, however. Please note the distinction) in the
past two years.

|> >  
|> Tim
|> 
|> Your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one-sided and
|> selectively naive.

I disagree, Basil has always seemed to me to be a cool-headed person, slow
to anger (certainly more so than I). What is most important is that he is an 
actual witness to things from the other end of the Israeli guns. If only the 
Israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were 
reversed perhaps they would moderate their "retaliation".

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
