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From: smayo@world.std.com (Scott A Mayo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dreams and out of body incidents
Message-ID: <May.13.02.27.38.1993.1421@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Date: 13 May 93 06:27:39 GMT
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dt4%cs@hub.ucsb.edu (David E. Goggin) writes:

>I'm fairly new to these groups, tho' some have heard from me before.
Welcome.

>I'd like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a
>lot:  What morals/ethics apply to dreams and out-of-body incidents?
>In normal dreams, you can't control anything, so obviously
>you aren't morally responsible for your actions.

Hm. I get a little queasy around the phrase "aren't morally 
responsible", perhaps because I've heard it misused so many times.
(I remember in college some folk trying to argue that a person who
was drunk was not morally responsible for his actions.) In general,
most folk can't control their dreams, but perhaps what you do all day
and think about has some impact on them, hm? And I'm not sure what
"actions" are in a dream. But I will note that Jesus does seem adamant
about the fact that our thought-life is at least as important as
our actions. Go lightly with this argument - we are all morally
responsible for *who we are* and dreams might well be an important
part of that.

>Now, there seem to be 3 alternatives:
>1) Dreams and OOBEs are totally mental phenomena.  In this case no morality
>applies beyond what might be called 'mental hygiene', that is, not trying
>to think about anything evil, or indulgining in overly sexy or violent
>thoughts.
I don't know a thing about Out Of Body Experiences. I've had dreams, some
fairly vivid ones; is an OOBE just a very vivid dream? I would argue that
extreme interest in this sort of phenomena is a tad risky; it is probably
much better to think about who Jesus is, and who we are in relation to that,
than to cultivate a strong interest in dreams. Unless you feel plagued by
dreams that are painful and out of control; then pray about it and/or get help.

>2) Dreams and OOBEs have a reality of their own (i.e. are 'another plane')
>Evidence for this is that often dreams and OOBEs are sometimes done in
>common by more than one person.
What on Earth is your definition of "often"? I know exactly one case of
two people who had substantially the same dream at the same time, and
as they were brothers who had spent the day doing the same things I could
see why their dreams might be similiar. Anyway, the only "other plane" I
know of is the spiritual realm. I don't think *anyone's* dreams,
perhaps outside the occasional prophet's, represent actual actions on an
alternate plane. If they were real actions, or conscious thoughts, then
yes they would have direct moral significance.

>3) Like (2), but here we assume that [garbled text: "because the dream occurs
in a different environment, then different moral laws apply" is my guess of
what you said.]
I don't see the slightest hint in Christian writings that ones "environment"
changes the way a person determines what is moral. For a Christian won't
it *always* come down to "what Jesus would have us do?"

>So... There it is.  Is one of these cases the truth, or does anyone know
>of another alternative?  respond by post or email.
Truth? I don't claim to be an expert in dreams. I'll note that the Bible
doesn't talk much about dreams outside of the realm of God using them to speak
to us, with the caveat that such messages are not always very clear, as it
warns somewhere in the OT. Given that, I would not give them a lot of
attention unless you feel your dreams are trying to tell you something.

I would discount talk of "alternate planes," though. The only places such
concepts are commonly bandied about are for the most part hostile to
Christianity, though I've run into the occasional exception. If you are,
or want to be, a Christian, you want to be very careful about ideas like
this. 
