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From: sliew@ee.mu.OZ.AU (Selbyn Liew)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: An agnostic's question
Message-ID: <Apr.21.03.24.39.1993.1285@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Date: 21 Apr 93 07:24:40 GMT
Sender: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu
Organization: Dept of E & E Eng, U of M
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Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

In article <Apr.17.01.11.16.1993.2265@geneva.rutgers.edu> jdt@voodoo.ca.boeing.com (Jim Tomlinson (jimt II)) writes:

[..]

>goodness that is within the power of each of us.  Now, the
>complication is that one of my best friends has become very
>fundamentalist. That would normally be a non-issue with me, but he

Hello.  Firstly, what do you exactly mean by "fundamentalist"?  I will
for the time being assume that what you mean is that your friend believes
that the bible is God's word to mankind?  I suspect that what happened
to him is what he'll call being "born again"?  Anyway, was that recent?
If the answer is "yes" to all the questions above, it is quite
understandable.  However, IMO, I'ld rather give advice to your friend!
I think I've been through something similar to him, and one thing I can
say is that the basic problem is that each of you are now trying to
communicate from different worldviews.  Why he talks about those things
is because they are now "obvious" to him.  What is "obvious" to him is
not obvious to you.  Secondly, why he may be very persuasive is because
from his point of view, he has been on "both sides of the fence".  This
I mean that before he turned "fundamentalist", you two are agreeable
because both of you see things from the same side.  If suddenly, as if
a new world of reality has suddenly opened up to him, it is like the
discovery of let's say a new continent, or a new planet.  To him, he's
got to tell you because he has seen something much more wonderful than
where he was, and what he thinks is much better than where you are now.
You have got to realise that from his point of view, he means well to
you, eventhough he may end up offending you.  To him, it is worth that
risk.  Nevertheless, it is really up to him to respect where you stand
and listen to you as well.  At this moment, it may be difficult because
he is either very excited or feel it is too urgent to keep quiet about,
however, he may not realise that he's really putting you off.

[...]

>the Bible that it is so.'  So my question is, how can I convince him
>that this is a subject better left undiscussed, so we can preserve
>what is (in all areas other than religious beliefs) a great
>friendship?  How do I convince him that I am 'beyond saving' so he
>won't try?  Thanks for any advice.

So far, I've only been trying to explain things from his side.  However,
I do understand how you feel too, because I wasn't a Christian for a good
part of my life as well.  I was quite turned off by Christians or
"fundamentalists" who were really all out and enthusiastic about their
faith.  They really scared me, to tell you the truth.  Unfortunately,
"religious belief" is a very personal thing, just as your agnosticism
is also a very personal thing to you.  Since the Christian belief is
inevitably at odds with anything non-Christian (religious or otherwise),
it will be a touchy matter.  Like all friendships, it will take both
sides to do their part to make it work.  In this matter, maybe you can
do your part by telling him nicely that you are not able to dig what he's
trying to convince you about, that it's beyond you or not your concern
"for now".  Don't tell him it's nonsense, because to him it is reality -
and that would be a real insult.  He'll also have to be careful not to
insult where you stand too.

Like I said before, I wish I could give your friend some advice too.
I'll admit that I did similarly to some of my friends when I became a
Christian.  In some ways, I wish I could have done things a little
differently.  However, it was difficult then because I was so excited
and just blabbered away about what I've found!  To me, it was too good
not to know.  To some, I was crazy, and I didn't really care most of
the time what they thought.  You will probably think he's crazy too -
but God is very real to him, as real as you are to him.  Keep that in
mind.  And he thinks he can convince you because since God is so real
to him, he doesn't see why God can't be real to you too.

I don't know how helpful this is to you.  But all the best anyhow -
this is quite a challenge for you to face.  By the way, personal
conviction: nobody is "beyond saving" except the one we call the 
devil and his hosts.

Regards,
Selbyn Liew
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Dept. of EE Engineering, University of Melbourne, Victoria 3052, Australia
EMAIL: sliew@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au    PH: +61-3-3447976   FAX: +61-3-3446678
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