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From: alastair@farli.otago.ac.nz (Alastair Thomson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Does 'Just/justifiable War' exist?
Message-ID: <Apr.19.05.13.20.1993.29212@athos.rutgers.edu>
Date: 19 Apr 93 09:13:20 GMT
Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu
Organization: University of Otago
Lines: 107
Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

Hi there netters,
I have a question I would very much like to see some discussion on:
Is there such a thing as a 'justifible' war? 

What I would love to see it some basis from scripture for either: "All war  
is wrong", or "Some war is justifiable". 

To get things started I would like to outline why I am asking the  
question. In my high school days I had been quite involved in the the New  
Zealand Cadet Forces (This is a bit like ROTC from what I understand of  
it, but with a lot more emphasis on fun than military career training).  
Through this I became extremely enamoured of flying, have become involved  
in the sport of gliding, and have a great interest in military aviation  
hardware as the very best a 'real' flyer could ask for. My favourite  
computer games are the accurate simulations of military aircraft, both  
past and present. 

I became a Christian about 10 years ago, and at the time rejected all  
military activity as immoral. For me, all war was in complete opposition  
to God's commandments to love one another, especially one's enemies.

During the war in Iraq, I found myself with great excitement listening to  
the reports of the effectiveness of the the attacks using the aviation  
technology I so admire - The F117A 'Stealh' bomber, the F14, F15 and F16  
strike aircraft, etc. After the war concluded I began to really enjoy  
simulations based around this conflict - Great to go and bomb Saddam's  
bio-weapons plants in an F117A on my computer, or shoot down some of his  
Mig's in an F16. The simulation of the death of people was a wonderful  
game. I imagine the real pilots view the real thing in much the same way.  
One only has to look at the language used to see that the personal impact  
of war is ignored: A building containing people, or an aircraft flown by a  
pilot is simply a 'target'. Dead civilians are 'collateral damage'. These  
euphanisms are a way of removing the reality of war from the people whose  
support are necessary for the continued waging of war - One only has to  
look at Vietnam to see how important public opinion is.

Now we see troops sponsored by the United Nations entering Somalia, and  
the prospect of military intervention in the Muslim/Croat/Serb conflict in  
the former Yugoslavia. My revulsion in particular to the siege of  
Sarajevo, and in the last few days of (sorry 'bout spelling) Sebrenitsa,  
has caused me to rethink where I stand on 'justifiable' war.

I will list several wars in the last 50 years I can look at each, and say  
- Yes this may have been justifible, this may not. These are simply my gut  
reactions to each - In many cases with the benefit of the impartiality  
history brings. Let me go through a few and state some of my reasons for  
my reaction - I am not a historian, so excuse any historical blunders, I  
am working from popular history as it is known in New Zealand.

1. The Second World War
	- Murder of Jews - Hitler had to be stopped.
	- Massive civilian casualties on both sides 
		- Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki
	- Probably justifiable.

2. Korean war
	- Political expansionism by North Korea, basically
	  communism vs. capitalism.
	- Probably not justifiable.

3. Vietnam
	- As above, worsened by US involvement.

4. Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia.
	- Genocide by Khmer Rouge.
	- Probably justifiable.

5. Iraq (Desert Storm)
	- Political expansionism, threat to world oil supply
	- Other factors such as genocide.
	- Not sure, but probably justifiable

6. A future involvement in Bosnia
	- Genocide - so called 'Ethnic Cleansing'
	- Emotive - much TV coverage of atrocities and civilian casualties.
	- Probably justifiable

7. Possible future use of nuclear weapons - tactical or strategic,  
somewhere in the world by the US in response to someone else - e.g. Libya  
or Israel.
	- My feelings in this are simple
	- Nuclear war/weapons are abhorrent
	- I love the New Zealand government's stand on banning all nuclear
	  armed or powered warships from NZ port.
	- Never justifiable.

These are my own views, I have looked at scripture, and I am confused. I  
would appreciate others view, particularly those based on scripture. I  
*don't* want a - Naaahh, yer wrong - I think answers 8-).

Thanks for your help.

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Alastair Thomson,                   | Phone +64-3-479-8347
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