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From: noye@midway.uchicago.edu (vera shanti noyes)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Why do people become atheists?
Message-ID: <May.13.02.30.47.1993.1551@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Date: 13 May 93 06:30:48 GMT
Sender: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu
Reply-To: noye@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
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Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

In article <May.11.02.37.42.1993.28189@athos.rutgers.edu> muirm@argon.gas.organpipe.uug.arizona.edu (maxwell c muir) writes:

[a lot of stuff deleted -- i'm focusing on just one point]
>Well, he got me there. I am a strong atheist, because I feel that lack of
>evidence, especially about something like an omnipotent being, implies
>lack of existence. However, I haven't met the strong atheist yet who said
>that nothing could ever persuade him. Call me a "seeker" if you like, I
>don't. 
>_Weak_ atheism is being ignore here, though. Some atheists simply say "I
>don't believe in any god" rather than my position: "I believe that no
>god(s) exist." For the weak atheist, the is no atheism to disbelieve,
>because they don't actively believe in atheism. (If you think this is
>confusing, try figuring out the difference between Protestants and
>Methodists from an atheist point of view :).

i'm a little confused about the difference between this "weak atheism",
as you put it, and agnosticism.  is agnosticism not believing or
necessarily disbelieving in anything, or what is it?  i used to be
agnostic (by this definition) -- but if weak atheism includes not
necessarily believing in God, then i guess i was one of those.  ???

actually what i have a hard time understanding is people who do not
ever decide what they believe.  i am constantly in a state of
self-examination, as it would appear many others are as well (including the
atheists, of course -- i'd assume that's why they're here!).  i guess
some people don't really consider it important to think about the
answers to "life, the universe and everything" -- any comment?  just
wondering....

>This is another fallacy many theists seem to have, that everyone believes in
>something (followed up by "everyone has faith in something"). Guess what?
>My atheism ends the moment I'm shown a proof of some god's existence. Is
>that really too much to ask?

tough call, as these things seem to be based on faith -- wish i could
help you, but i already tried once with someone who was a
self-professed agnostic-thinking-of-becoming-a -christian, and it
didn't work too well!  especially tough as i'm still mulling over
whether or not i believe in miracles (looks like another email to my
chaplain is coming up....).  all i can do is wish you the best of
luck, and please do post what you find.

>And I told you that I find faith to be intellectually dishonest. Note that
>I can only speak for myself. If you find faith to be honest, show me how.

hmm, how so?  i guess i really don't understand.  there are times, of
course, when i say to myself "of course i have absolutely no way of
knowing that what i believe in is true except the satisfaction and
sense of peace i get from it -- which of course could just be
psychological".  somehow i live with this anyway -- is this what you
mean?

the only "proof" i have is that i believe God spoke to me once --
which could of course be my own imagination.  the odd thing is,
though, that if you don't at some point start believing in something,
after a while it all gets sort of ridiculous.  maybe it's just a
question of where you draw the line.

>I have been unable to reconcile it so far. Maybe that's how I'm "broken"?
>I tell you that I have invisible fairies living in my garden and that
>you should just take my word for it. If you accept that, you are of a
>fundamentally different mind than I and I really would like to know how you
>think. All I ask for is proof of the assertion "God exists". Logical or
>physical proofs only, please. Then we'll discuss the nature of "God".

i'll only add one question -- have you read pascal?  what did you
think of him if you did?

also you may (or may not) be interested by cslewis/ _surprised by
joy_.  i'd be interested in knowing what you think of him, no sarcasm
at all intended.  (i just say this because one can never know how
one's written words will be interpreted.  i am not interested in
converting you, since i don't seem to have whatever it would take --
proof -- to do so.  i'm just interested in learning.)

>Muppets and garlic toast forever,

i like this.

>Max (Bob) Muir

cheers,
vera
________
i give you everything		disclaimer: of course i don't agree with
my sweet everything		trent reznor's (nin's) theology.  i think 
   - nine inch nails		it's interesting nonetheless.
noye@midway.uchicago.edu 	(vera noyes)
