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Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!rochester!mucit
From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES
In-Reply-To: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 23:24:49 GMT
Message-ID: <MUCIT.93Apr20212900@vein.cs.rochester.edu>
Sender: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu)
Nntp-Posting-Host: vein.cs.rochester.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Rochester
References: <1993Apr16.195452.21375@urartu.sdpa.org>
	<MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>
	<1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com>
Date: 20 Apr 93 21:29:00

In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com  writes:
In article <MUCIT.93Apr20144400@vein.cs.rochester.edu>, mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes:
[...]
henrik]  Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the
henrik]  KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. 

BM] Gimme a break.  CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense.  It
BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
henrik]	Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do
henrik]	want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them.

News reports I've seen say otherwise both location and motives wise.  
CAPS don't change facts.

BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out.  Stop and think for a moment,
BM] will you?  Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it
BM] is a part of it.  

henrik]   Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged 
henrik]   training AZERIS militarily to fight against  KARABAKHI-Armenians.

So?  Should I, at this point break into caps and start talking about 
DEFENSE etc.?  I don't know how 'fully engaged' Turkey is/was though.

henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 
henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the 
henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending 
henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. 

BM] Huh?  You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them
BM]  within their borders?  

henrik] Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into 
henrik] the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime.

So I hear.  This justifies bloodshed N years after the fact?

henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the 
henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER 
henrik] OCCUR again.

BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you?  Where would Turkey invade?

henrik] It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped
henrik] into Armenia if SHE could.

Why would Turkey do that?  Do you not realize that this is a local clash
that Turkey never wished to see happen?  Turkey has other plans for region,
like economic revival, co-operation etc.  Good stuff in other words,  I'd
be happy to bicker with Armenians over trade barriers and such on USENET
rather than 'who killed whom in what way' which I detest doing and wouldn't 
do.  

BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header
BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun?  

henrik]	   Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many
henrik]	   cases, HISTORY repeats itself. 

Even if one buys into your implicit premise, the sane thing to do would
be to try not to provoke Turkey as was done in '74.  If there'd been
a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in Athens at the
time, everybody would have stayed home with their families.  [I have no
wish to go into the Cyprus quarrel, but I suspect what I've said is not
only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved]

BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes 
BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring
BM] the parties to the negotiating table.  That's hard to do when Armenians 
BM] are attacking Azeri towns.

henrik]	   So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey
henrik]	   wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !!

So what do you think we want?  War, death and destruction?  

henrik]	   I will believe it when I see it.

No, if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it.

henrik]  Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing
henrik]to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)?
	
This kind of childish rhetoric doesn't help anthing.

henrik]  Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the
henrik]  BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean
henrik]  BURNING people ALIVE !

Now, some Azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff
perpetrated by Armenians.  One should re-hash stuff like this often to
keep the hatred alive, right?

BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the 
BM]futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that 
BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's 
BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes.  

henrik]	   Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are 
henrik]	   NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY 
henrik]	   from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN. 

Well they obviously aren't getting anywhere with their current methods
of asking (not very peaceful I'd say).

BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent 
BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe 
BM] the other out.   These people will be neighbors, would it not be better 
BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal?

henrik]	   Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the
henrik]	   conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in
henrik]	   KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion.

I don't know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans.
Peace isn't what's happening right now, furthermore what's happening
right now isn't condusive to peace.  You can spend days and nights 
raving about how 'right' the Armenian position is and I'm sure
there'll be others who'd be happy to talk to you by arguing the other
side.  If entrenched positions lead to war, and if people want peace
than they should sit down and talk about a compromise.  Armenia isn't
strong enough to exercise the 'we think we're right, and we have the 
bombs, so we'll do whatever we want, so there...' style of foreign 
relations.  Yes you can type Stalin in caps, and give one sided
atrocity stories etc. but for peace you need to be willing to talk to 
the other side.  You personally can choose not to do that of course,
this being just USENET.  The people in power shouldn't be so childish.


BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes
BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of 
BM] their blood and future. 

henrik]	   Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension
henrik]	   to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH
henrik]	   are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET.

Azeri's would disagree with you on this, and the maps I've seen support
what they'd be saying.  It doesn't seem likely that a solution will be
reached in this manner.  

BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize 
BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled.  The Armenians
BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate 
BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more.  The sooner there's peace in
BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else.  I'd push for
BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading
BM] inflammatory half-truths.

henrik]   It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely
henrik]   for it. 

It didn't look it when I read your posting.  It would seem to me 
that if you can spew mis-information about a boogey-man, you can also
talk about how one might avoid the nastiness.  Fair?

henrik] But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself,
henrik] you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of
henrik] The Armenian Massacres.

You don't realize I can say the same thing about 'The Turkish Massacres.'
Yes, boys and girls, let's always talk about how bad and nasty things were.
Let's do that so we're overwhelmed by anger, and let's do that so our
kids will also be hateful.  Sounds crazy doesn't it?  Don't do it then.

BM
