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From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: ISLAM BORDERS vs Israeli borders
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Message-ID: <2BC09184.14190@news.service.uci.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 56
Date: 5 Apr 93 20:07:32 GMT
References: <2BBC9B34.13517@news.service.uci.edu> <4805@bimacs.BITNET> <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca>

In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>>What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ??
>
>The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking
>the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts.
>If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.

There certainly are muslims who *do not* believe that their dream of 
a global Islamic community should be achieved through force. There are, 
however, others (and, they are often far more visible/vocal than the 
former) who *do* accept the establishment of global Islam through force. 
I  would *not* feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing 
"Islamicization" through peaceful means, nor by Jews advocating the same
approach. Those advocating force as a means of expanding their side's
power are certainly a threat.

To Palestinians, Israel is doing just that; maintaining its dominance
of those *outside* its own "group". If I am told that "I am not one of
you" but you then impose your control on me, damn right you are a threat.
If I am a member of a non-muslim minority *inside* the Islamic
world and *actively did not* accept my "minority" status, I *would also 
certainly* see Islam's domination as having been acheived, and maintained, 
through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities
within their ranks.
>>
>>Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer.
>
>I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions:

I am not a zionist, but do feel that *both* Jewish and Palestinian
nationalist desires need, at this juncture, to be accepted in some way.
>
>1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many
>of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more
>than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?
>						***
For the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous
for Islam to be spread by force upon those who DO NOT WANT THAT. 

>2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of
>the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?

[I refer to the "most" you also refer to] 
Because they are scared, and feel very threatened, as well feeling that 
this area *is* to some degree part of their belief/religion/heritage/
identity/etc.

I too strongly object to those that justify Israeli "rule" 
of those who DO NOT WANT THAT. The "occupied territories" are not
Israel's to control, to keep, or to dominate.
>
Tim


