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From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Of Heroes and Cowards / The Depopulation of Karabakh Armenians
Message-ID: <1993May13.201851.28814@urartu.sdpa.org>
Summary: the fight for survival 
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 20:18:51 GMT
Lines: 231

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I was suggested by the author of this email I am responding to, Alex 
Chaihorsky, that whatever we write to each other will be considered public.
Thus, I share this email with all!

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In Email Message-Id: <9305112203.AA14579@netcom2.netcom.com> sasha@netcom.com
(Alexander A. Chaihorsky) wrote:

[A] David --

[A] We can go throwing flames at each other -
[A] nothing is easier. Why do not you just try to
[A] see the situation from a different prospective?

Not taking sides leaves one in a state of perpetual indecision because both 
sides in this issue have their own logic at any given time. As an Armenian I 
am partisan -- by definition. However, this does give me the license to lie, 
cover-up, or revise events under question as we have read on UseNet in postings 
by agents of the Turkish government. I understand both sides of the issue, but 
this does not mean I will advocate both sides when it suits me. Such a 
position would make me a hypocrite. I am also not being paid by agents of 
Turkey nor Azerbaijan as are many proponents of the Azeri side. I refer to 
agents such as Captioline International Group, Ltd., being paid in excess of 
$30,000/month by Azerbaijan. I state my case unencumbered by such advocacy or 
prostitution. 

[A] You do not have to change your mind for that - 
[A] just (as if you are playing chess) ask yourself -
[A] what if? 
[A] What if your tone is so offensive that one type of
[A] people loose control and start to erratically insult
[A] you, and others emotionally detach themselves from
[A] you writings and are not engaging in the discussion 
[A] with you?

My tone is not offensive. If people are offended by what I say than I just
may be too bad. This conflict, as is human conflict in general, is rather 
bleak and is surrounded by the most barbaric actions of man. Given such 
conditions, dispassion is rather difficult, and artificial at best. This does 
not mean that discussion is out of the question. No conflict is ever resolved 
without discussion.

[A] I'll try first. Recently I received a message from
[A] a Russian guy who frequently visited Baku that 
[A] approximately after 1986 the old situation when 
[A] there were no anti-Armenian press had changed and
[A] the press became very anti-Armenian and average
[A] Azeri became an Armenian-hater. This is devastation 
[A] news for me because one of my cornerstones was the fact
[A] that I MYSELF SAW ARMENIANS IN BAKU AMONG OTHER ETHNIC
[A] GROUPS AND SAW, OR HEARD, OR READ NOTHING THAT WOULD
[A] SEEM LIKE HATRED. You might say that an outsider never 
[A] sees, but by that time I was myself victimized as a member
[A] of a minority by Russians and knew what to look for and
[A] what innocent sign or remark might signify.

I am sure. The Soviet Union effectively froze in time all ethnic problems it
created or was brewing just after WWI. During the Soviet reign, officials 
tended to shape the frozen conflicts in such a way so when thawed, they 
would serve the purposes of the internal policies of the Soviet Union or
successor states.

[A] Again - one of my cornerstones show cracks. I will investigate.
[A] Another cornerstone of my thought is that Armenia started
[A] hostilities against Azeris in Armenia before anything happened
[A] in Sumgait (not at all I am trying to justify violence in Sumgait
[A] or anywhere else - I bow my head with grief and respect and 
[A] did demand and will laways demand that criminals be severely
[A] punished according to the law of the land.
[A] I would like you to supply me with the information about that.
[A] Does or does not the hostilities began in Armenia? Was thousands
[A] od Azeris thrown out of their homes and forced to leave Armeina
[A] before Sumgait or not? 

Sumgait took place in February of 1988. The Azeris of Armenia were expelled
in the late fall of 1988. It took the entire summer of 1988 for the
situation to get so bad for Azeris in Armenian that the Russians had to
evacuate them. I refer specifically to _Human Rights Violations in Armenia
and Azerbaijan_, A report of Pax Christi Netherlands 12 September 1991. Also,
one need only read the newspaper to verify this. 

You do realize, perhaps unknowingly -- perhaps not -- you are mirroring 
Turkish propaganda and lies regarding what took place when and where first!

[A] Second - in your last message you used a very terrifying
[A] phrase - "Artificial borders" when you were talking about 
[A] Armenian. Do you believe that Armenia have righteous territorial
[A] claims? Do you believe that Armenia has rights to the lands that
[A] currently belong to other countries? 
[A] Do you believe that this is stricktly Armenian priviledge or
[A] everybody should start reclaiming what once was theirs?

I had addressed this issue several time before -- perhaps I was not clear. The
current borders of Armenia were not set as a result of the consolidation of
a high Armenian culture. Today's Armenia is about 1/10 the land mass that
sustained Armenians for nearly three millennia. It was the natural Armenian
boundaries that sustained Armenians -- not the current boundaries. The current
borders of Armenia would never support a society nor sustain its growth. Does 
this mean that Armenia should expand? It might, if Armenia is not allowed to 
integrate into the region. If this past winter is any indication of the future 
status of Armenia, then Armenia must do what it will to survive. 
Unfortunately, in my opinion, and you can quote me on this, as I am sure you 
and others will, the combined forces of both Armenia and Karabakh should have 
taken Karabakh and the land in between in a matter of weeks in late 1991. This 
would avoided all the pain and suffering both sides endured and would remove a 
tool of Russian influence in the Caucasus. You may call me a war-monger -- so 
be it. If Armenians don't defend their right to live on the land they live on, 
those rights will be taken away. The Azeris should not have the right to 
remove these Armenians, but given the first chance to, they will, as was 
proven throughout all of Azerbaijan. If the Soviet Union didn't break apart, 
today Karabakh would be emptied of Armenians. Operation Ring, started in early 
1991 emptied the northern 1/3 of Karabakh of Armenians, but the operation was 
suspended by the disillusionment of the Soviet Union. Lucky for the Armenians! 
If the Azeris feel as though they can expel all the Armenians of Karabakh, the 
Armenians will resist, if the Armenians can't live under Azeri oppression, 
then they will fight for the right to live their lives free from such 
oppression. If this means these Armenian demand independence, I support such a 
move. If you can't understand this, as an Azeri, that is truly unfortunate. 
Until this is understood by the Gray Wolves in Baku, more young Azeri men will 
die in the pursuit of the expulsion and ethnic cleansing of Karabakh 
Armenians.
 
[A] Third thing - you keep saying about 3000 years of Armenian presence
[A] in Karabakh. What exactly you mean by that? That there were Armenians
[A] 3000 years ago in Karabah? Only Armenians? Or among other nations?
[A] I saw (SAW) a Russian tax map of Karabah with all the landowners and
[A] occupant names on it (the map was surveyed by Russian Army in 1810.
[A] Would you believe that there were almost exclusivly Achmeds and Hu-
[A] sseins? I also saw Armenian names, but the absolute majority of the
[A] population was Muslim. If I am wrong - give me your sources, but
[A] please, let us keep the rule that we only pay attention to third
[A] party sources.
[A] There are Russian diplomatic documents about the mission of the
[A] Russian famous writer and diplomat Griboedov whose mission in Iran
[A] was protection of Armenians that were persecuted by Persians and
[A] RELOCATION these Armenians inside Russian Empire. According to
[A] the Russian tax documents that was the time when the population of
[A] Karabakh became predominantly (in some places) Armenian.

Karabakh, or Artsakh as it is known in Armenian (and Urartian) is the only
piece of Armenia that has a continuous Armenian occupation, from the
transformation of the Urartians to Armenians, nearly 3,000 years ago. You
refer to Russian and Muslim rulers over Karabakh, not the population! You
surely must know the rules of Muslim landownership over non-Muslims.

[A] You write in your letter that "Azeris were shelling Stepanakert which
[A] now is almost completely destroyed"  David - is it fair to say that 
[A] Stepanakert was destroyed by Azeris? There is that fine line between
[A] propaganda and personal view, however bizzarre that view is - YOU KNOW
[A] AS WELL AS ANYBODY WHO SAW TV IN THE TIMES OF THE EARTHQUAKE - that 
[A] Stepanakert was almost completely devastated by the quake. 
[A] But may be you believe that the damage from Azeri shelling is greater
[A] than the damage from the quake? OK, no problem, AS LONG AS YOU MENTION
[A] THE QUAKE. 

As I wrote in a short response to you regarding this earlier. You may be
confusing Spitak with Stepanakert. There were no effects of the earthquake 
in Karabakh.

[A] I want dialog. I am not interested in mud-throwing. And in dialog I want
[A] honest opinions (one might be wrong, but one MUST be honest). Honest 
[A] opinions may be based on emotions but in this case one should indicate
[A] that. But mostly we are looking for information based opinions.
[A] I always ask myself - why I think that? Is it because I was told so
[A] bt so many people that it became a truth? Or I read a book? Who wrote
[A] it? What was his/her intentions/interests/whatever? 

Fine. I stated my opinions and the reasons for them. If you put into action 
what you just stated above, you would understand my outrage at the posting of 
Farid who just posted items from some Islamic conference, etc., and just left 
it at that. He has done his numerous times. At least I responded to that 
posting, and was outraged that Farid simply copies other people`s text, posts 
it -- yet does not display the courage be responsible for what he posts. One 
can always stand behind the facade of claiming what I write is polemic, 
however, as a result such irresponsibility I am free to make a claim of 
cowardice. 

[A] Please, give me sources, facts, titles of the books of third party
[A] writers, etc.

I believe I have, and can support what I claim. I don't make up history, nor
do I have to! I have done enough research regarding Turkish Genocide Apology 
to revisionism from good scholarship, and I will never fall victim to 
bottomless pit of making claims without a solid basis.

[A] And please, answer my questions in the beginning of the letter.

[A] And for you Armenian friends who do not like what I write - 
[A] sorry, but these are my thoughts and it is very disturbing
[A] that you like people when they say what you like and dislike
[A] them when they say something that you do not like. 

Alex, I stated my friends and associates where rather surprised as the tone of
your posting considering the fact that I had categorized you as an open-minded 
Azeri. Perhaps I was fooled by you? Perhaps I should believe that you are like 
"all Azeris when it comes to Armenians". I chose not to accept such a 
statement. They were not surprised at what you said so much as it was coming 
from you, somebody from which they expected otherwise. You see, you didn't add 
anything to the issue, which was the expectation, only conforming old
suspicions.

[A] For me
[A] it is most inportant that a guy makes a honest effort to find
[A] the truth. If so, he/she might have whatever opinion he/she
[A] wants. I believe that telling people the truth, seeking it - is 
[A] far more noble than just support your race because it is yours.
[A] That is a way of animals, primitive tribes and criminal societies.
[A] Civilized people seek truth.

[A] Cheers,

[A] Alex

If you think I am intellectually dishonest, please demonstrate it. As I stated
above, I am partisan on this issue, thus expect me to take a stand in the
interest of the Armenians, not against Armenians. This stance should not seem 
strange to you. I am not here to generate excuses for Armenians wanting to 
live on the land they live on, and wanting to live in peace. If Armenians must 
die for what they believe in, and make ultimate sacrifice, you had better 
listen to them. No amount of rhetoric -- not from Yerevan, Baku, the CSCE, nor 
paid prostitutes in Washington -- will convince Karabakh Armenians otherwise! 


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org   | "Armenia has not learned a lesson in
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies |  Anatolia and has forgotten the 
P.O. Box 382761                      |  punishment inflicted on it."  4/14/93
Cambridge, MA 02238                  |   -- Late Turkish President Turgut Ozal 
