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From: tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock)
Subject: Re: Zionist leaders' frank statements
Nntp-Posting-Host: orion.oac.uci.edu
Message-ID: <2BF69FC7.2150@news.service.uci.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 43
Date: 16 May 93 20:10:47 GMT
References: <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>

In article <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>
>>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can
>>    be no doubt of this.  
>
>There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
>I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
>I hope you can come up with a definition in itself...

Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture 
(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
of "context" results) "hate" their culture. That certainly describes Elias, 
since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis. 
>>
>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved 
>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." 
>>                                                   A. J. Heschel
>
>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in 
>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
>stabing people in Israel.
>
>AAP
>
And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long 
been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when 
forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped. 

--
Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student
UCI  tel#: 714,8565361                      Department of Politics and Society
     fax#: 714,8568441                      University of California - Irvine
Home tel#: 714,8563446                      Irvine, CA 92717
