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From: ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Athiests and Hell
Message-ID: <May.19.05.15.09.1993.1020@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Date: 19 May 93 09:15:10 GMT
Sender: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
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Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

In article <May.13.02.27.26.1993.1411@geneva.rutgers.edu> REXLEX@fnal.fnal.gov writes:
>In article <May.11.02.36.29.1993.28068@athos.rutgers.edu>
>ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei) writes:
>>In article <May.9.05.38.49.1993.27375@athos.rutgers.edu> REXLEX@fnal.fnal.gov
>writes:
>>[much deleted] 
>>>point today might be the Masons.  (Just a note, that they too worshipped 
>>>Osiris in Egypt...)
>>[much deleted] 
>>
>>     It bugs me when I see this kind of nonsense.
>>
>>     First, there is no reasonable evidence linking Masonry to ancient
>>Egypt, or even that it existed prior to the late 14th century (and
>>there's nothing definitive before the 17th).
>
[I'm going to cut "Rex"'s ramblings down a bit.]

[...]
>You must not be past your 20th level.  You should read Wilkinson's
>Egyptians and how he shows this Egyptian religion paralleling his own British
>Masonry.  There is a man here at this laboratory who is a 33 degree black
>mason.  I've talked with him, [...]
>There is the public side with motorcyle mania and
>childrens hospitals and then there is the priviate side that only the highest
>degree mason every learns of.

   Rex, there are literally hundreds of thousands of 32nd degree
Masons in this country, and thousands of 33rds. If nasty stuff was
really going on, don't you think you'd have more than a couple of
disgruntled members "exposing" it? Heck, if what you say is true, then
Rev. Norman Vincent Peale is an Osiris worshiper.
 
[...
Long quote from someone named Hislop (source not given) deleted. I'm
attempting to extract from it the relevent points: 

  * Osiris is actually Nimrod, a Babylonian Deity. 

  * "It is admitted that the secret system of Free Masonry was originally
    founded on the Mysteries of the Egyptian Isis, the goddess-mother, or
    wife of Osiris."

  * The Babylonian Nimrod and Osiris are both connected with the building
    trade, ie, with Masonry.

  * Nimrod, as the son of Cush, was a negro. [isn't this refering to a 
    Biblical Nimrod, rather than the Babylonian god?]

  *  ...there was a tradition in Egypt, recorded by Plutarch, that 'Osiris
     was black'.
...]

     There is a long tradition in Masonry of claiming ancient lineage
for the order, on the flimsiest of grounds. This dates right back to
the Constitutions of 1738, which cite Adam as the first Mason. I've
seen other claims which place Masonry among the Romans, Greeks, and
Egyptians, and Atlanteans. I even have a book which claims to prove
that Stonehenge was originally a Masonic temple. 

    Claims prove nothing. Where's the beef, Rex?

[...Claims ex-Mason showed him leopard skin he wore in lodge]
> Any representation of Osiris usually show the wearing of some leopard.

   I'd have to check this. The tomb paintings I remember don't show
this.

>  It is interesting that the Druids of Britian also show, or should I say
> hide, this representation.  They, however, worshipped the "spotted cow".

   Can you give ancient citations for this? The druids were suppressed
over 2000 years ago. What's your point?

   This whole "leopard skin" business sounds bizarre.  I have not yet
gone through the Scottish Rite (which contains all of those "higher
degrees" anti-Masons get so excited about, and which was invented in
the 1750's), but I know enough people who have (and who are good
Christians), that I reject your claim.

>I'll stand by my statements.  Masonry is of the "mystery" religions
>that all find their source in Babylon, the great harlot. Sorry Peter,
>I do not mean to be a "cold slap to the face" but there is to much

Not so much a 'slap in the face' as 'a weary feeling of deja vu'. I'm
going through a very similar argument over on soc.culture.african.american.

>evidence to the contrary that Masonry doesn't find its origins in
>Egypt.  Of the Masons I have personally talked to, all refered to
>Egypt as their origin.  

    Why don't you try reading some serious books on Masonic history, such
as Hamill's "The Craft"?

>Why are you now separating yourself from this which not many years ago,
>was freely admitted?

   Because we got honest. If you can come up with actual evidence that
Masonry existed prior to 1390, I'd be VERY impressed (actually,
anything earlier than 1630 would be pretty good.)

>-Rex
						Peter Trei
						ptrei@mitre.org

Disclaimer: I do not speak for my employer.
