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From: sun075!Gerry.Palo@uunet.uu.net (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christianity and repeated lives
Message-ID: <May.16.01.56.25.1993.6680@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Date: 16 May 93 05:56:26 GMT
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Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu

In article <May.11.02.38.37.1993.28288@athos.rutgers.edu> KEVXU@cunyvm.bitnet wr
ites:
>While this is essentially a discussion of reincarnation in the context of
>Christianity Gerry Palo has made some comparisons to Asian religious
>beliefs on this topic which have simplified the Asian idea of karma
>to the point of misrepresentation.
>
I realized that my generalizations would probably have problems
under scrutiny from various  Asian points of view.  They need to be 
discussed in detail, indeed. But for the purposes of this newsgroup 
and thread  thus far and in this newsgroup, I risked oversimpli-
fication.  My main purpose was to emphasize that I was not coming
from a Buddhist or Hindu point of view.  As you observed, the
main context is that of Christianity.  But by all means, add comments
and corrections as you find them.

I wrote a longer reply addressing some of your points, but decided
to not post it. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for soc.religion.
eastern. Instead I just add the following couple of items about karma 
and reincarnation as I see the matter from an anthroposophical and 
a Christian point of view.

1. Karma is not simple reward and punishment dealt out by a "judging
   deity".

2. Reincarnation is not the same as being born again.

3. Reincarnation is not the same as the resurrection of the body.

4. Reincarnation and karma do not contradict the fundamental teachings
   of Christianity about God, the fall, the being. incarnation, death,
   and resurrection of Christ, his coming again, sin, grace, forgiveness, 
   salvation, and the last judgement.

>Isn't Origen usually cited as the most prestigious proponent of reincarnation
>among Christian thinkers?  What were his views, and how did he relate them
>to the Christian scriptures?
>
>Jack Carroll

Origen's work was mostly lost. He was not anathematized, to my knowledge, 
but his writing comes down largely in fragments and quotations from enemies.
Perhaps someone else can comment on Origen.  I don't know if there
is a specific statement about reincarnation from him, but from what I do
know about him he probably did hold to the teaching in one form or another.

I don't know too much about the history of the idea of reincarnation in
the Church. However, I heard an interesting story about Pope John Paul II
from an astronomer who teaches at the University of Cracow.  The Pope likes
to go to Poland for a scientific conference every couple of years so he
can relax and talk Polish to friends and fellow countrymen.  My acquaintance,
an anthroposophist, related the fact that Woitila knew about Steiner and
Anthroposophy from his early days.  Before he became a priest he was an
actor in a dramatic company in Cracow whose leader was a pupil of Steiner
and based his acting and directing methods on Steiner's indications.  Part
of the work was the study of the basic works of anthroposophy.  Well,
going to this conference with him a few years ago, the astronomer and another
Polish anthroposophist thought they would ask the Pope what he thought about
Anthroposophy.  They chickened out at the last minute, but one of them did ask
him what he thought about reincarnation.  The Pope smiled and said, 
"Actually there have been quite a few good Catholics who believed in 
reincarnation," and he proceeded to name several from the earliest times
to modern times.  Then he changed the subject. My Polish friend did not
say whether Origen was among those he mentioned.

Gerry Palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com) 

[As far as I know Origen himself was not anathematized.  He was
controversial, but avoided outright condemnation during his lifetime.
However some of his views were condemned at a Council in Alexandria in
400 and two councils in Constantinople in 543 and 553.  I am fairly
sure the preexistence of souls is one of the doctrines condemned.
--clh]
