Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
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From: holland@CS.ColoState.EDU (douglas craig holland)
Subject: Re: Non-lethal alternatives to handguns?
Sender: news@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (News Account)
Message-ID: <Apr15.032620.75908@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 03:26:20 GMT
References: <shepardC5FtLs.681@netcom.com> <1993Apr13.221936.28301@watson.ibm.com>
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Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department
Keywords: handgun mace pepper-spray taser tasp phaser
Lines: 102

In article <1993Apr13.221936.28301@watson.ibm.com> mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps) writes:
>
>In article <shepardC5FtLs.681@netcom.com>, shepard@netcom.com (Mark Shepard)
>writes:
>|> How effective are personal defense products like mace, pepper-spray,
>|> tasers and other non-lethal "stun" devices compared to handguns?
>|> Any statistics on #'s and types in use?
>|> 
>|> These products seem very attractive compared to handguns
>|> because, being non-lethal, they are more "forgiving" of accident or
>|> mistakes/wrongful shooting (such as the Yoshi Hattori case), and
>|> allow the justice system to deal with the criminal (rather than
>|> criminals simply being _dead_, which has a certain "vigilante feel"
>|> which seems to bother anti-gun people).
>
>The "more forgiving" nature also has its down side; it allows a criminal
>to use them w/o the ADW [assault with a deadly weapon] charge.  They also
>can have lethal or dangerous side effects -
> - some people have violent reactions to mace/pepper sprays
> - stun guns can harm people with weak hearts
> - people have suffered eye damage from mace; the stuff that is available
>   now is less concentrated than it used to be.
> - some of the spray propellents are flammable
>
>|> 
>|> The arguments I see _against_ these non-lethal weapons compared to
>|> handguns are lack of range, lack of "stopping power" or effectiveness,
>|> and limited "ammo".  True?  How about cost?
>
>Sprays
>
>- using any of the spray based [eg mace, pepper] indoors is bound to
>  affect anyone else in the room (like the victim) due to the nature
>  of the stuff.
>
>- using the sprays outdoors in any sort of breeze mitigates its 
>  effectiveness.
>
>- from reading various articles, it appears that mace, especially the
>  mace available to citizens, is pretty ineffective on people under
>  the influence of drugs or alcohol.
>
>- pepper spray appears to be more effective, but has the inherent spray
>  delivery problem.  It still does not appear to be anything better than
>  a distraction that might buy you time to run like hell [if you can].
>
>Consider that running like hell isn't always a viable solution.  For
>example, if you are dressed in boots and the assailent is dressed in
>sneakers .. you might have a tough time outrunning them!
>
>Tasars and Stun Guns
>
>- require contact with skin for max effectiveness; a jacket [like a 
>  leather one] will mitigate its effectiveness
>
>- the user must be extremely close to the assailent; that puts them
>  at a considerable risk of injury. 
>
>- the user must keep the stun gun in contact with the assailent for some
>  non negligible period of time.
>
>- tasar darts can be pulled out.
>
>Consider the problem a small women would have keeping a stun gun in 
>contact with a average size man for any length of time w/o sustaining
>serious injury.
>
>|> 
>|> Have any anti-gun groups suggested non-lethal weapons, to counter
>|> the pro-gun argument that people will be left defenseless?
>
>I haven't heard of any.  Generally they contend that people don't
>need to [or aren't able] to defend themselves.
>
>|> 
>|> And, what legal restrictions/licensing apply to non-lethal devices?
>
>Civilian ownership of stun guns is frequently illegal [NY].  The sprays
>are also illegal in some states.  Believe it or not, they are still 
>illegal in NY, although about half the state thinks they are legal!
>[I believe that NY almost legalized them; i have heard that the reason
>they didn't was due to their ineffectiveness]
>
>I feel that the sprays are better than nothing, but only if the user
>does not believe the hype ["this'll drop 'em in their tracks" stuff]
>and uses it as a diversion o_n_l_y .
>- 
>|> 
>|> 	MarkS
>|> --
>|> Mark Shepard | shepard@netcom.com | Portola Valley, CA
>
>-- 
>Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
>                (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy         
> (and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..       

What about guns with non-lethal bullets, like rubber or plastic bullets. Would
those work very well in stopping an attack?

						Doug Holland

